(no subject)

[hearthstone]

Okay, I have to say it--I do not understand these folks who decide to become heathen or pagan and the first thing they do is look for "a teacher." Seriously, maybe I'm weird, but my impulse would be to do my own research first! Wouldn't it make more sense to try to gain a broader base of information before handing oneself over to some random person? Why would someone think that this random person would be at all knowledgable, or even trustworthy, if they had no exposure to the faith in question ahead of time? How would they be able to tell?

I don't mean folks who ask for information or to be pointed to resources--or who do some work, realize that they've gotten as far as they can on their own, and ask for assistance in going further. That's reasonable. But that's not what you see--what you see is people who are looking for someone to hand them a pre-formed spirituality, whether because they don't want to do the work themselves or because they can't let go of the notion that there must be a single Truth out there--or, I suppose, because they are looking for the secrets of the universe or some such thing, and obviously anyone who happens to be hanging out on an email list would not only possess them but would jump at the chance to hand them out to anyone who asked. I'm not particularly offended by this--caveat emptor and all that--but I just hate to see so many people shutting off their brains before they've even tried to engage them.

Comments

[angiereedgarner.livejournal.com]

I think folks like that are maybe looking for an experience of relationship. I know I got tired of being alone in my search, and sad too. But relationship with hierarchy doesn't work for me.

And the congregation shouts "Amen"! ;-)

[sunvenus.livejournal.com]

Agreed; it's as if they want to be "told" rather than to "learn". Sure it's nice to have guidance- and necessary for some things- but to sit and be given it all on a platter, laid out neatly? Even if things *could* be transmitted that way, they would have little to no value in that format- not like knowledge that is fought for and truly learned "from the heart"- “won” or “earned”. I guess that's why "the mysteries" are deemed experiential. I also wonder sometimes if this "need to be told" phenomenon is due to the overall "dumbing down" in the education system that is occurring in most English-speaking countries. (Allen Bloom has a great book about this: "The Closing of the American Mind". It applies here in Oz as well, and from what I hear from my Brit pals, there too.) Or perhaps it is because most "pagan" seekers come from faiths like Christianity, Judaism & Islam that have such a legacy of authoritarian behaviour, and firm orthodoxy. Perhaps most folks aren't accustomed to practices that are orthopraxic.

[maewyn]

I'm guessing it's because most of the newbies learn from books, and in an orthopraxic tradition, it's important to be able to do things right. I learned to cast a circle from books, albeit many books; I learned to do an ADF ritual by reading so many online and printing off some to just try. There are other things I still don't know how to do because I need to be shown.

However, I haven't looked for a teacher because I did once -- put an ad on Witchvox and everything -- and I got one hit, a guy who said he would teach me stuff including sex magick, but Matt had to be okay with him having sex with me. Obviously, I wasn't okay with him having sex with me, and I had wits enough not to give this guy my real name or address or meet him in person. But I think sleazeballs like that (or stories of them) steer newbies away from finding teachers, or else we'd have much more one-on-one teaching.

Rambling in your journal. The orthopraxic thing, plus our culture's tendency for lecture-based learning, plus stories of oral history -- the Druids' 20-year training period, witchcraft being handed from mother to daughter -- make it desirable to be taught by someone.

[weofodthignen]

You've had some responses talking about how people come out of traditions of passive learning both in school and in their childhood religion. But I also think languages tend to be a real weak spot and source of fear for most English speakers--and Germanic stuff is studded with linguistic challenges. Also there are a lot of heathens who emphasize the importance of doing heathenry right--it's very much built into the gestalt of the religion. So I kind of understand newbies seeking instruction--the clearer and more structured, the better. I can see it as an understandable fear response, and in fact many, many heathens look down on people winging it. What I tend to look down on more is those who have been heathen for a while but stopped at a very basic level of knowledge--for example, never attempting to puzzle out the original Norse or Anglo-Saxon for a crucial passage whose exact meaning they worry about, never learning the names of the gods in the Old Tongues or how to pronounce key words, including those names. That's where my personal bias kicks in--I don't understand why a heathen would not wish to know more than many settle for.

M

[criedwyddwen.livejournal.com]

While I'm very wary about handing over my instruction about anything to just anyone, there is something to be said about personal instruction.

For example, I learned far more about meditation by having a teacher teach me how than reading it in a book and trying to apply it.

Otoh, I've been consciously pagan for about 5 years now, and still haven't found a "teacher". Nor have I looked for one in earnest. So, I do agree with you that saying "I think I'm pagan, who wants to be my priest/ess??" is not the smartest way to do it.

Other people have made the points about being trained most of our formative lives to need a teacher to learn anything. If these people came from christian religions, there's alot of spoon feeding there too.

And then there's that worry about doing things "wrong". OMG, I used TABLE salt not KOSHER salt ... awful things will happen with this spell. I said "thee" instead of "thou" in that incantation ... the gods will hate me forever! I'm exagerating to silliness here but I've seen some people get all worked up over perfection. And it's not about perfection, it's about so much more than that.